House Judiciary Committee Interview Of: Don McGahn

Source: NPR
Type: congressional-testimony

Source Text

Excerpt only. The full source text is too long to reproduce here:

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY,
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
WASHINGTON, D.C.

INTERVIEW OF: DON MCGAHN

Friday, June 4, 2021

Washington, D.C.

The interview in the above matter was held in Room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 10:05 a.m.

Present: Representatives Nadler, Jackson Lee, Johnson of Georgia, Raskin, Scanlon, Dean, Jordan, and Gaetz.

Staff Present: Perry Apelbaum, Staff Director and Chief Counsel; Aaron Hiller, Deputy Chief Counsel; Arya Hariharan, Chief Oversight Counsel; Sarah Istel, Oversight Counsel; Priyanka Mara, Professional Staff Member; Cierra Fontenot, Chief Clerk; Kayla Hamedi, Deputy Press Secretary; Will Emmons, Professional Staff Member; Anthony Valdez, Professional Staff Member; Steve Castor, Minority General Counsel; James Lesinski, Minority Counsel; Betsy Ferguson, Minority Senior Counsel; Caroline Nabity, Minority Counsel; Michael Koren, Minority Senior Professional Staff; Darius Namazi, Minority Research Assistant; and Isabela Belchior, Legislative Director for Representative Matt Gaetz.

For DON MCGAHN:
ALLISON MCGUIRE
WILLIAM A. BURCK
QUINN EMANUEL URQUHART & SULLIVAN, LLP
1300 I Street NW
Suite 900
Washington, D.C. 20005

For the DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE:
ELIZABETH SHAPIRO, COUNSEL

For the OFFICE OF THE FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP:
SCOTT GAST

Mr. Hiller. All right. We’ll go on the record.
Good morning. I’m Aaron Hiller, deputy chief counsel for the House Judiciary Committee, and I have the honor of kicking things off today.
This is a transcribed interview of former White House counsel, Donald F. McGahn.
Would the witness please state his name and formal position at the White House for the record?
Mr. McGahn. I’m Donald McGahn. I was the counsel to the President.
Mr. Hiller. Thank you, sir. Thank you for appearing here today.
I will now ask everyone who is here in the room to introduce themselves for the record. Remember to hit the “talk” button on your microphone. If you’re not near a microphone, speak real loud for the reporters, starting with Chairman Nadler.
Chairman Nadler. I am Jerrold Nadler, chairman of the Judiciary Committee.
Ms. Istel. Sarah Istel, counsel for House Judiciary Committee.
Mr. Hiller. Mr. Raskin, why don’t we go with the members first?
Mr. Raskin. Jamie Raskin, member of the Judiciary Committee.
Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Hank Johnson, member of the Judiciary Committee.
Ms. Dean. Madeleine Dean, member of the Judiciary Committee.
Ms. Scanlon. Mary Gay Scanlon, member of the Judiciary Committee.
Mr. Jordan. Jim Jordan, Fourth District of Ohio.
Mr. Gaetz. Matt Gaetz, Judiciary Committee member.
Mr. Hiller. And now the staff present, please. Mr. Apelbaum.
Mr. Apelbaum. Perry Apelbaum, chief counsel, Judiciary Committee.
Ms. Hariharan. Arya Hariharan, chief oversight counsel, majority staff.
Mr. Emmons. Will Emmons, professional staff member, Judiciary staff.
Ms. Mara. Priyanka Mara, professional staff member, majority staff.
Mr. Valdez. Anthony Valdez, professional staff member, majority staff.
Mr. Gast. Scott Gast, Office of the Former President Trump.
Ms. Belchior. Isabela Belchior. I’m with the office of Matt Gaetz.
Mr. Koren. Michael Koren, professional staff with Mr. Jordan’s staff.
Mr. Lesinski. James Lesinski, Republican counsel.
Mr. Castor. Steve Castor with the Republican staff.
Ms. Ferguson. Betsy Ferguson, senior counsel, Republican staff.
Ms. Nabity. Caroline Nabity, Republican staff member.
Mr. Hiller. Thank you.
Ms. Jackson Lee.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Sheila Jackson Lee, representing Texas’ 18th Congressional
District. Thank you.
Mr. Hiller. And here at the table.
Mr. Burck. William Burck, counsel for Don McGahn.
Ms. Shapiro. Elizabeth Shapiro, counsel for the Department of Justice.
Ms. McGuire. Allison McGuire, counsel for Don McGahn.
Mr. Hiller. Thank you, everybody.
Mr. McGahn, before we begin in earnest, I’m going to set some context and go
over the ground rules for the day.
The committee first issued a subpoena for Mr. McGahn’s testimony on April 22, 2019. Mr. McGahn was scheduled to testify before the committee on May 21, 2019, but
did not appear at that time.
Pursuant to House rules, in order to carry over our request for Mr. McGahn’s
testimony to the new Congress, the committee reissued its subpoena to Mr. McGahn on
January 11, 2021.
In an attempt to resolve our suit to enforce that subpoena and compel that
testimony, the committee has reached an accommodation with the Department of Justice
concerning the format and scope of this interview. The full details of that agreement are
on file with the court. I will not read the whole thing here, but I’ll get to the salient
details. We should discuss a few aspects of that arrangement before we begin.
First, members of the public, the press, and Members of Congress who are not on
the Judiciary Committee are not permitted to attend this interview. We will also try to
keep the staff in this room to a minimum. And the chairman has instructed us to enforce
this understanding.
Second, under the strict terms of the agreement, only committee counsel, private
counsel for Mr. McGahn, and counsel for the Department are permitted in this room.
However, as a courtesy to the former President and at the request of Mr. McGahn’s
attorney, the chairman will permit counsel for President Trump to observe today as well.
I am instructed to remind counsel for both the current administration and the
former President that you are guests in this room, and I would ask that you please keep
this in mind as we proceed.
Out of fairness to our witness, we will try to keep any interruptions to a minimum.
If counsel for Mr. McGahn or the Department would like to register an objection, we will
pause the interview and attempt to resolve our disagreements quickly and quietly on the
side.
Third, at the conclusion of the interview, Mr. McGahn, the committee will make
the transcript available to you and to the Department for review prior to its publication.
The chairman notes that, in accordance with our agreement, all members and staff
present are required to maintain the confidentiality of that transcript until we are able to
make the document public.
Under the terms of our agreement with the Department, today’s interview will
cover the following topics, and I am quoting directly from the agreement here: one,
information attributed to Mr. McGahn in the publicly available portions of the Mueller
report and events that the publicly available portions of the Mueller report indicate
involve Mr. McGahn; and, two, whether the Mueller report accurately reflected Mr.
McGahn’s statements to the Special Counsel’s Office and whether those statements were
truthful, unquote.
To be clear, either side may ask Mr. McGahn any questions on any number of
topics, but within that agreed-upon scope, the Department will not raise any privilege
issues and the committee expects that Mr. McGahn will respond to questions in that
frame with direct and complete answers.
I’ll pause for a moment to see if Mr. McGahn has any questions so far. Okay.
Thank you. Just a little more official business, and then we’ll begin.
Our questioning will proceed in 60-minute rounds. The majority will ask questions
for one hour, and then the minority will have the opportunity to ask questions for an
equal period of time. We will repeat this back and forth for additional rounds as
necessary.
The interview will end at the discretion of the chair, provided that the majority
and the minority have had an opportunity to question you for an equal amount of time.
The majority and minority rounds are controlled by the chairman and ranking member,
respectively.
To maintain a clear record for the official reporter, there will be no interruptions
by individuals or members not authorized to ask questions. It is also important that we
do not talk over one another or interrupt each other if we can help it. Typically, we take a
short break at the end of each hour of questioning, but if you need an additional break for any reason, please let us know.
We will also break between majority and minority rounds in order to allow for
appropriate health and safety measures. As you can see, the physical layout of the room
is a little different than it normally is, in order to comply with health and safety guidelines
from the House Sergeant at Arms and the Attending Physician.
Mr. McGahn, an official reporter is taking down everything we say to make a
written record, so we ask that you give verbal responses to all questions. Do you
understand this? This is a test.
Mr. McGahn. Yes.
Mr. Hiller. Thank you, sir.
The committee encourages witnesses who appear for transcribed interviews to
consult freely with counsel if they so choose. You understand that you may consult with
your private counsel at any time, correct?
Mr. McGahn. Yes.
Mr. Hiller. Although this interview is not under oath, Federal law requires you to
answer questions from Congress truthfully. Do you understand this?
Mr. McGahn. Yes.
Mr. Hiller. That same obligation applies to questions posed by congressional staff.
Do you understand this as well?
Mr. McGahn. Yes.
Mr. Hiller. Witnesses who knowingly provide false testimony could be subject to
criminal prosecution under 18 U.S.C., Section 1001. Do you understand this?
Mr. McGahn. Yes.
Mr. Hiller. Is there any reason you are unable to provide truthful answers to
today’s questions?
Mr. McGahn. No.
Mr. Hiller. Thank you, sir.
As I noted earlier, we anticipate that our questions will receive complete
responses. If you do not understand a question, please say so. If you honestly do not
know the answer to a question or do not remember it, please say so and give us your best
recollection. If you learned the information from someone else, please inform us who, to
the best of your knowledge, might be able to provide a more complete answer to the
question.
Mr. McGahn, this is the end of my preamble. Do you have any questions before
we begin?
Mr. McGahn. No, no questions.
Mr. Hiller. Thank you, sir. Would you like to make any sort of opening statement
before we begin?
Mr. McGahn. No, but I appreciate you asking.
Mr. Hiller. All right. The majority will now begin its questioning with Ms. Istel.
The time is 10:15. The floor is yours.
EXAMINATION
BY MS. ISTEL:
Q
Mr. McGahn, thanks for being here.
A
Good morning.
Q
During my questions, I’ll be referencing page numbers from the report.
Unless I specify otherwise, I will be referring to Volume II of the report. If at any point
you want to take a minute and read the relevant portion, just ask.
A
Okay. Is that what this binder is in front of me?
Q
Yes. The binder in front of you has the full Mueller report, and I believe your counsel has a copy as well. Let me know when you’re ready.

A
I have Volume II in front of me.
Q
Great. I want to begin by asking you about the special counsel’s
appointment. Do you recall a meeting in the Oval Office on May 17, 2017, during which
the appointment of the special counsel was discussed?
A
No. Is there something in the report that you’re referencing?
Q
Let me direct —
A
You’re throwing out a date more than 4 years ago, so I apologize. But May
17th and —
Q
Understood. It was an —
A
— no context, it’s tough to pick a date.
Q
— important day, but —
A
Well, maybe.
Q
— let me direct you to page 78 of the report, first main paragraph. It says:
The President learned of the special counsel’s appointment from Sessions, who was on
with the President, Hunt, and McGahn conducting interviews for a new FBI Director.
Sessions stepped out of the Oval Office to take a call from Rosenstein, who told him
about the special counsel appointment, and Sessions then returned to inform the
President of the news.
Does that refresh your recollection?
A
It does, yes.
Q
As reflected in what I just read, during that meeting, the President learned of
the special counsel’s appointment. Can you tell us the President’s reaction to that
appointment?
A
Well, I think the report goes on to describe it in some detail.
Q
I’m asking for your recollection of what the President’s reaction was at the
time.
A
Well, again, you know, you’re asking about something 4 years ago, but what
you’ve read in the report is accurate, and the next sentence is also what happened.
Q
What’s the next sentence you’re referring to, please?
A
It says: According to notes written by Hunt, when Sessions told the
President that a special counsel had been appointed, the President sunk back in his chair
and said, “Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I’m fucked.”
Q
Do you recall the President’s tone when he said that?
A
His tone? I don’t really recall his tone. Tone is subjective so tough to —
Q
Was he angry when he said that?
A
I don’t think at this point it would be considered anger. I think he — I think
he felt like, from my perception, that this was bad news.
Q
What was your understanding as to why he felt “this is terrible, this is the
end of my Presidency, I’m F’d,” in response to the special counsel’s appointment?
A
You’d have to ask him.
Ms. Shapiro. Can I interrupt? His answers need to be limited to what’s in the
report because communications between executive branch officials are outside the scope
even in the event part of the agreement.
Ms. Istel. His answers need to be limited to information attributed to him and
events the publicly available portions of the Mueller report indicate involved Mr.
McGahn. He was present.
Ms. Shapiro. Excluding communications between executive branch officials.
Ms. Istel. But this isn’t a communication. I’m asking him what he understood the
President to mean when he said that.
Ms. Shapiro. Okay. Just so we’re clear we’re excluding those communications.
Fine.
Ms. Istel. Understood.
BY MS. ISTEL:
Q
I’ll repeat the question.
A
Yeah, sorry.
Q
That’s okay.
A
What’s the question?
Q
What was your understanding as to why the President felt that the
appointment of the special counsel was, quote, “terrible, this is the end of my Presidency,
I’m F’d”?
A
Well, I think what he said speaks for itself. I’m not sure what I can add to
bring it to life more than what’s on the page.
Q
Do you recall the President saying anything else during that meeting about
the special counsel’s appointment?
A
Well, the report goes on and recounts other parts. He certainly had other
things to say, yes. It wasn’t the end of the meeting.
Q
In the first paragraph on page 78, it says: The President became angry and
lambasted the Attorney General for his decision to recuse himself from the investigation,
saying, “How could you let this happen, Jeff?”
What did you understand the President to mean by that?
A
I think he meant what he said: How could you let this happen? “This,” I read
“this” as —
Q
What did “this” refer to?
A
Say again? Sorry.
Q
What did you understand “this” to refer to, the special counsel’s
appointment?
A
Yes.
Q
Was it your understanding that the President believed that if Sessions had
not recused himself, the special counsel would not have been appointed?
A
I don’t know what the President would have understood. I wasn’t in his
mind. And this was — you know, this was a meeting within a meeting. I think the report
explains this. We were in the process of interviewing a new FBI Director. So this wasn’t a
regularly scheduled meeting with the usual mental preparedness to be on your toes. So it
was a fluid situation.
Q
Do you recall the President saying, “You were supposed to protect me,” or
words to that effect when he got angry at Sessions?
A
You’re reading from the report? Yes, there it is. Right. That’s what he said.
Yeah.
Q
When the President said, “You were supposed to protect me,” what did you
understand the President to mean? What did he want Sessions to protect him from?
A
Well, I think the next sentence in the report answers that question, where he
talks about the consequences of the appointment. And according to the report, he says:
Everyone tells me if you get one of these independent counsels, it ruins your Presidency.
It takes years and years, and I won’t be able to do anything. This is the worst thing that
ever happened to me.
I think that’s also responsive to your previous question as to what was in the
President’s mind. I think the President told us very clearly what he was thinking.
Q
Do you recall the President telling Sessions that he should resign during that
meeting?

Events Citing This Source

Event	Date	Category
McGahn Ordered to Fire Mueller	Jun 17, 2017	Cover-ups & Obstruction

People Mentioned

Person	Role
Don McGahn	White House Counsel (2017-2018); refused Trump’s order to fire Mueller
Donald Trump	45th and 47th President of the United States
Robert Mueller	Special Counsel for the Russia investigation (2017-2019); former FBI Director
Rod Rosenstein	Deputy Attorney General (2017-2019); appointed Mueller as Special Counsel

Institutions Mentioned

Institution	Description
DOJ	United States Department of Justice

Related Sources

Source	Type	Publisher
Report On The Investigation Into Russian Interference In The 2016 Presidential Election	government-filing	Justice.gov
The 10 instances of possible obstruction in Mueller report	news-reporting	AP News